Home » News » Liberty + Leadership Podcast – Bill McGurn on Journalism, Faith, and Freedom

Liberty + Leadership Podcast – Bill McGurn on Journalism, Faith, and Freedom

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Join Roger Ream ’76 in this week’s Liberty + Leadership Podcast as he speaks with Bill McGurn, who sits on The Wall Street Journal editorial board and writes the weekly “Main Street” column for the Journal. In this week’s episode, they explore Bill’s career at The Wall Street Journal, his deep connection with Hong Kong political prisoner Jimmy Lai, and the intertwined themes of faith and imprisonment. They also discuss ways in which ordinary people can help support press freedom and combat the rise of imprisoned journalists including Jimmy Lai, WSJ reporter Evan Gershkovich and countless others who are wrongfully imprisoned worldwide.

Bill McGurn is an author and journalist. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and previously served as chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush. He was the chief editorial writer for The Wall Street Journal, and for more than a decade, Bill reported from overseas: in Brussels with The Wall Street Journal/Europe and in Hong Kong with both the Asian Wall Street Journal and the Far Eastern Economic Review. Bill is the author of “Terrorist or Freedom Fighter” and a book on Hong Kong entitled “Perfidious Albion.” He received a bachelor’s degree in philosophy from Notre Dame and a master’s degree in communications from Boston University. In 2022, TFAS honored Bill with the Thomas L. Phillips Career Achievement Award for producing work that is emblematic of the type of courageous journalism and dedication to the truth that we strive to teach at TFAS.


Episode Transcript

The transcript below is lightly edited for clarity.

Roger Ream [00:00:00] Hello and welcome. I’m Roger Ream and this is the Liberty and Leadership Podcast, a conversation with TFAS alumni, supporters, faculty and friends who are making a real impact in public policy, business, philanthropy, law and journalism. Today I’m excited to be joined by Bill McGurn. Bill is a member of The Wall Street Journal’s Editorial Board and author of the “Main Street” column that appears every Tuesday in The Wall Street Journal. He was formerly the chief speechwriter in the Bush administration. Bill has dedicated his career to journalism and spent more than a decade reporting overseas, including an extended period in Hong Kong. He was the recipient of our 2022 Thomas L. Phillips Career Achievement Award. Bill, thanks for joining me today. I’m looking forward to our conversation, especially because I have such respect you as a journalist and a person of a great character.

Bill McGurn [00:01:02] Thank you, Roger. Very kind.

Roger Ream [00:01:05] Well, Bill, I’d like to begin by asking you what led you into a career as a journalist?

Bill McGurn [00:01:12] I never really thought about it because it was something I always wanted. I always worked in my school papers, and that was through in college. So, I never really considered anything else. It’s very difficult career at some point, but it’s very fulfilling.

Roger Ream [00:01:35] Yeah. Well, your career has been very, very successful. It’s taking you to assignments both in Europe and Asia as well as here in the United States. What led to those overseas assignments?

Bill McGurn [00:01:49] Well, they were job offers and I needed a job. So, my first offer was to go to Europe. I did not want to go to Europe, but that was the way to get to The Wall Street Journal. At the time, we had a European edition. So, I got to Brussels where we were located, and I had a good time. I traveled around on the companies’ dime and saw all sorts of things. At the time, we also had an Asian edition, which was older than the European edition, and many of the people that I worked with on Europe had come from the Asia edition to help start up the European venture. I remember getting to Europe and thinking: “This is as far as I go.” Hong Kong seemed on the other side of the world. Paul Gigot was then in Hong Kong for The Journal. It was on the other side of the earth. But three years later, I decided to give it a try, and I loved it. I loved Asia. I lived there twice. The second time I was married. My kids are adopted from Asia. So, it’s been very good to me.

Roger Ream [00:03:03] When you were in Hong Kong, you came to know Jimmy Lai, extremely successful entrepreneur and founder of a very successful newspaper, Apple Daily. He came to Hong Kong from China as a young man and built a large, successful clothing chain and then went into the news business. How did your relationship with him come about?

Bill McGurn [00:03:28] Well, it came about my second time in Asia when I was married. First time I lived in Hong Kong, I was single, and all I want to do is travel the region, and I did. The second time, I was married, and we grew more roots in Hong Kong just by having a wife and friends. Jimmy came into our orbit. I was then working at the Far Eastern Economic Review. Paul Gigot also worked there earlier in his career. Dow Jones owned it. It was kind of like an economist for Asia. It no longer exists: English Language Weekly Magazine. So, in Hong Kong, I noticed there are no stores for the middle class when I was first there. You could get all the designers: Gucci, Ralph Lauren, etc., at great prices. So, Europeans and Americans came over to get these expensive things at great prices and all the hotels had these big-name brand shops. And then for everyone else, there were great bargains. You could get the sports coat you’re wearing; you could go out and get that for five bucks in the streets. The problem is you couldn’t go out looking for a blue sports coat. It is kind of hit or miss what they have. So, no one had come up with a way to tap the middle class which wanted value and style at a reasonable price. And then enter Jimmy Lai. He started a shop called Giordano. He named it after a pizza parlor in New York. When he was working in New York, he went to it. He thought that an Italian name on a fashion item would be much better than Chinese name. So, he named this thing and it sold, kind of like, the Gap or something similar: sold polo shirts, brightly colored shorts, very good quality, very inexpensive. And there are branches all over. So, you go in and someone who is a secretary or a housewife or a young worker could get some good clothes, stylish and a very reasonable price. It was one of the first things to tap into Hong Kong’s middle class. So, I urge Gordon Kroger, my boss then, why don’t we do a story on Jimmy Lai in this angle? So, they did. And then Gordon had lunch with him. Gordon’s like us, he believes all things we do and very free market. So, Gordon came back for lunch, I didn’t go, and he said: “You know, Jimmy Lai claims to be the only man in Hong Kong who has read every word of Hayek.” So, he sent me a note that said that, but I couldn’t read Gordon’s handwriting, and I thought Hayek was Engels, and I thought: “Well, that’s an achievement,” but it’s kind of like those things you see in Chinese curiosity shops, like someone translated the Iliad into Chinese and wrote it on a piece of ivory the size of a thumbnail. It’s an achievement, but you kind of like to what purpose? Then I found out it was Hayek, and I went to Jimmy’s house, we went on a boat trip, we obviously had very simpatico feelings. My wife became very good friends with his wife, and that’s how our friendship kind of grew.

Roger Ream [00:07:39] Well, I certainly believe that story, not just because you told it, but in the film that the Acton Institute produced probably a dozen years ago, “The Call of the Entrepreneur,” they featured Jimmy amongst two other entrepreneurs, and he tells the story of coming to New York, his first trip, I think, out of Asia, and someone he was with at dinner giving him a copy of “The Road to Serfdom” by F.A. Hayek, the Nobel Prize winning economist. When he says that story about getting Hayek and how it changed his life, he’s choked up telling the story.

Bill McGurn [00:08:16] I’m a huge fan of Hayek too, so is Gordon. In fact, before I left Hong Kong, my second time, I was in Beijing and our Beijing bureau chief told me: “There’s a conference going on, and it’s about a book written by this guy, never heard of, some Austrian guy named Hayek.” And I said: “Really?” I went and I got a copy of Hayek’s “Constitution to Liberty,” have been translated into Chinese. And, normally, the communists would translate things for the party leaders and say: “This is poisonous stuff, we got to keep out.” It’s interesting because I don’t think Hayek ever wrote a word about China. He was really concerned with socialism in Britain and how that led to a decline in freedom. He wrote a little about Soviet Union, but the people living in a place like China under communist rule understood immediately the implications.

Roger Ream [00:09:29] Of course, Jimmy Jimmy’s now in prison and has been for about three years. I think he was sentenced to 69 months on, who knows what kind of bogus charges, a lease violation or something, but he’s more seriously, I guess, awaiting trial for national security law violations. You’ve been a not just a friend, but a vocal advocate for him. Are you able to communicate with him at all or get reports on how he’s doing?

Bill McGurn [00:10:01] In my family, our families are like, we’re related.

Roger Ream [00:10:05] Oh, you should talk about it.

Bill McGurn [00:10:09] I’m his godfather. My wife is his daughter’s godmother, and his wife is my middle daughter’s godmother. So, we’re very intertwined. Jimmy converted, became a Catholic a week after Hong Kong was handed over to China. So, anyway, that began the relationship. We very close. I can write to him. I avoid all political topics. We write really about family and faith. It’s amazing. I know this isn’t about faith, but when he converted, it happened so fast. First, I asked his wife, encourage me to ask him if he wanted to become a Catholic because he spoke so highly of it. She was and a lot of people in the movement were. And he said no, turned me down. So, you must respect the man’s wishes. But a week later, he changed his mind, he said: “I want Christ in my life,” and he called the cardinal and he had to give them stuff to read. And about two weeks later, a week after the handover, he converted. Now, I confess to a bad thought while it was happening, I wondered how much Jimmy really believed when he converted, because there are a lot of social reasons for him to become a Catholic. He would make his wife happy. A lot of the democracy movement was led by people he admired who are Catholic. He had great respect for the church, for religion in general, for what it contributes to society. And he saw how China really lacked that. Private religious institutions making life more civilized and fairer and so forth. So, I had all these feelings like, how much does he really believe? I have to say, I am ashamed now, because Jimmy’s letters to me reveal deep faith and he’s reading all the time. Cardinal Zen once complained: Now, when I go to Jimmy lying in prison, he always visits him in prison, but he said: “Now when I go, I have to read up on Athanasius and Augustine because Jimmy has some question about it.” So, yes, I can communicate with him. Not talk, honestly, but we do write.

Roger Ream [00:12:58] That must mean he does have access to books in prison.

Bill McGurn [00:13:02] He does. He spends his free time drawing, and he draws religious pictures, primarily the crucifixion. He thinks that’s his calling now to be a religious painter. He’s always been involved in art, even before, I have a couple of things that he drew, but now he has drawn these religious things, so he’s very interested.

Roger Ream [00:13:35] I think what people who may be not as familiar with his predicament in prison need to know is, he is an extremely wealthy individual because of his successful entrepreneurship over the years. He no doubt could have gotten out of Hong Kong, but he decided to stay, really, because so many of the young people who took great risks to protest, for China to uphold their agreement, their treaties, who supported democracy, were being punished for it, and Jimmy didn’t want to abandon them. Isn’t that, right?

Bill McGurn [00:14:13] That right, Roger. You put your finger on it. There is something I should clear up, too. A lot of people know Jimmy’s faith. They think he’s in prison because of his religion, that he’s a religious prisoner. Not really. But it is fair to say, he voluntarily went to prison because of this faith. He believes that suffering has a redemptive value, and he believes without a willingness to suffer, the stance he took would just be virtue signaling. So, he had plenty of opportunities. He has a place in Tokyo, a place in Taiwan, place in London, a place in Paris. He had plenty of places he could go to, but he staked everything on going in prison because of his faith.

Roger Ream [00:15:14] Well, I’m mindful of something I once read of Soldier Nitzan serving in prison in the Gulag in the Soviet Union, writing at some point, thank God for prison because prison made him focus on really what was important in life.

Bill McGurn [00:15:32] I think Jimmy would say that, too. Before he went to prison, he did a podcast with Natan Sharansky, and it was really illuminating because he was very interested in how Sharansky survived in prison. Sharansky made clear, his faith. He at one point shared a cell with the Russian Orthodox priest, and they had different beliefs, but each would carry out readings and the other would listen. The two things were his faith, and that Sharansky said: “Having his wife be loyal to him,” like Jimmy’s wife. Because Sharansky said when the Soviets would try to demoralize them, they say: “The world has forgotten about you. No one knows about you. No one cares what’s happening to you,” and he knew it was a lie because he knew his wife was out there caring for them, loving him and making the case for him. And Jimmy picked up on that point and when he went to jail, Sharansky kind of said he thought Jimmy was preparing himself for prison even when he’s making this podcast.

Roger Ream [00:16:53] Yeah. Well, a colleague of yours at The Wall Street Journal, Evan Gershkovich, is in prison awaiting trial in Russia. His trial date, I know, had been recently delayed. It seems like threats to journalists from authoritarian regimes. While they’ve always been a problem, seem particularly bad right now. There are some journalists in Iran that have been sentenced to prison for reporting. There’s a report by Reporters Without Borders that the number of countries with serious violations of press freedoms has increased in the past year. My first question, I guess, is what can people listening to this podcast, for instance, do to help people like Jimmy and Evan know that they do care? I credit you. You spoke at an event of ours in October, and you asked our audience to show their support for Jimmy with a very loud round of not only applause but shouting. I did the same at our Journalism Dinner in November in New York for Evan and Jimmy. What more can we do?

Bill McGurn [00:18:06] I think the hope is that our political leaders will bring up their names all the time. For example, Jimmy, if a Chinese airline wants landing rights in Seattle, the answer should be, what about Jimmy Lai? And that’s more for the British government, since he’s a full British citizen. With Evan the same thing. We must press the government to make the case for them. Because the problem is and it’s bipartisan, in the individuals’ case always seem secondary to national interests. You have a trade deal, an arms deal, the security arrangement, and then to risk it for someone. But I think that’s the promise of citizenship. When you’re in trouble and the only thing you got going for you is your government overseas. They got to really be there for you. I’ll tell you; we went to Jimmy’s son’s wedding in Taiwan a year ago. Me, my wife and my oldest daughter. I came back to the U.S. because I can’t visit Hong Kong. I know that might be arrested. So, it’s not safe for me to go. I never considered that my wife and daughter couldn’t go. Remember, we used to live there for many years, and they went to spend some time with Teresa Lai, and I had just got home at midnight, and I got text from my daughter saying they’re at the Hong Kong airport and they’ve been detained by the authorities. So, I was scared out of my wits. It’s midnight, I just got in, I didn’t know what to do. Fortunately, they weren’t officially detained. They were investigating. It was about six hours, and I alerted the consulate, and they called the authorities just to say we’re watching this. Anyway, after six hours, they said: “You could go in,” but my wife recognized that if she tried to seek Cardinal Zen or Jimmy, all family friends, we’ve seen many times over the years, it would be a trap, probably, and they’ll get in trouble. So, they left. But that’s the kind of harassment today. Poor Evan. He’s a little different from Jimmy. Jimmy, the authorities regard him as the mastermind of all the pro-democracy agitation, and the authorities really dislike him. So, no doubt he’s going to be convicted. His trial starts December 18th. No doubt about the outcome. Evan, I think it’s just the pawn. He’s in jail, he’s just doing his job. He’s not a spy. Nothing he’s accused of is true. He’s just a pawn in Putin’s cold-blooded policies. Having an American hostage might be handy for him.

Roger Ream [00:21:35] Yeah. I saw there was an offer, I guess, put on the table by the U.S. very recently that the Russians just rejected for his release and for some sort of exchange. The work of a journalist is vital, and I admire what you do and have done in your career. This year we gave our Kenneth Y. Tomlinson Award for Courage in Journalism to Benjamin Hall at Fox News, rather, who was badly injured in covering the war in Ukraine.

Bill McGurn [00:22:07] Paid a heavy price for his work.

Roger Ream [00:22:10] Yes. His is book “Saved,” it’s superb account of the ordeal he had trying to get not only in Ukraine, but about his whole career of what journalists go through to cover conflict and to get information to the rest of us that we need to hear about what’s going on in the world. Yet, of course, you know, authoritarians never want that information to get out if it’s in any way critical to them. You’ve seen journalism change a lot in this country over the years, but where do you think we are in terms of the state of journalism, either, in the U.S. or globally?

Bill McGurn [00:22:55] Well, I think it’s always changing. Today, a lot of changes are technological. The fact that we’re doing this podcast that wouldn’t exist 20 years ago. So, the digital aspect means that whatever you do, in whatever format can be transferred in seconds around the world. I think a lot of it’s still the old fashioned find out what’s happening, collect the news and so forth. I have to say, at your dinner, so many people came up to me and said: “Just want to you know, my wife and I are praying for Jimmy Lai.” I’ll tell you, he’s very humbled. He’s got thousands of people that he’s never met, probably never will, who are praying for him. I hear that all the time. I’m amazed at how many people do know about him, and that’s largely because of the social media and so forth. So, like the Hong Kong government has all these stories. On social media, though, they can be rebutted, and that’s getting around. So, his name is wide. Jimmy covers several categories. They’re people, they overlap, but there is separate. There are some people like you, the anti-communist, pro-freedom, pro-democracy. That’s one segment. You were at the Cato dinner because of Hayek and his personal friendship with Milton Friedman. He took Friedman into China on one of his trips. That’s another sliver of people. The press freedom. You know, one of the things that’s not appreciated. Jimmy had a newspaper “Apple Daily” that was reporting on Hong Kong and all the problems up until the very end. The very end was when the government took it from them without a court order. So, press freedom people are interested, too. As I say, this overlaps between, I mean, I consider myself part of the camp of everyone, but it’s a wide variety of people to whom he represents freedom. I say this also, not just his friend Jimmy Lai, even if I never knew him, I lived in Hong Kong ten years. It’s where I started my family, I had children. It was a great place. It reeked of opportunity for ordinary people, and it showed what ordinary Chinese could do if they were given the freedom. Now, it looks like that was a brief experiment of, 150, 200 years and is vanishing. The Hong Kong today is not the Hong Kong, I remember.

Roger Ream [00:26:06] Yes. We ran a program, a summer school in Hong Kong at the University of Hong Kong from 2002 until, I say, the communists kicked us out, until about 2018 or so, and then it just became problematic because of what was happening there. We’ve pulled out of Hong Kong. I fell in love with the place just on my short trips over there. You’re right. It was a land of opportunity, and so many people in the old days escaped from the mainland to Hong Kong to fulfill their dream.

Bill McGurn [00:26:40] It is populated by refugees, or children of refugees coming from the turmoil of China. I knew a journalist there whose father or a man whose father was a journalist during China’s civil war between the Communists and the KMT, and he covered Shanghai Shek’s moving of gold from China to Taiwan. He once said: “Hong Kong is the only Chinese society that delivered something no Chinese society ever had before: Freedom from the midnight knock on the door.” Hong Kong was so peaceful. If you have a business, the secretaries at lunch, they’re taking courses or planning to open their own shops. It was just amazing the power of that place, and the peaceful nature of it and all that’s been thrown out the window.

Roger Ream [00:27:49] Millions of people living on this place with no natural resources, really, except their human creativity and human ingenuity and the desire for human flourishing. They were remarkably successful as the world’s freest economy. I want you to tell a quick story that comes out of your work as a speechwriter for President George H.W. Bush. But to do that, I needed just to say something about the person who really was a mastermind at Hongkong success, James Kopp Worth, right? Could you just briefly share his role in this?

Bill McGurn [00:28:32] Yes. First, I should say that most of Jimmy’s friends, Paul Gigot, I, we all have a bust of James Cowperthwaite with these glasses like this and everything. Middle aged guy, bald. He was Hong Kong’s financial secretary after World War II and through the 60s. Hong Kong wasn’t a democracy; it was a colony. So, he had immense power. But unlike most people with immense power, he uses it to fight efforts to intervene in the economy. He was brilliant. That helped them. I remember having a lunch with him many years later and they asked him why he was famous; he wouldn’t even let the government keep GDP statistics right. So, I asked him: “Why wouldn’t you let them keep statistics?” And he said: “If I let them keep them, they can only misuse them.” So, as a man after my heart and he described being Milton Friedman in the 50s on one of Milton’s first trips to Hong Kong, and Milton was so overcome by meeting a guy in authority who basically shared his beliefs about the economy. He described Milton almost like rubbing his hands in glee, having met, Cowperthwaite and he had good reason to. So, a lot of us who admire Hong Kong, look at Cowperthwaite. Remember at the time of Cowperthwaite, the interventionist model was the dominant model. Japan State capitalism, Korea, same thing, even Taiwan, not quite as bad, the more entrepreneurial activity, but still the state model of picking industries and favoring exports, and Hong Kong didn’t have that and it flower.

Roger Ream [00:30:35] And you took that bust of James Cowperthwaite with you to the White House when you were a speechwriter, right?

Bill McGurn [00:30:41] Yes, I did.

Roger Ream [00:30:43] That’s a setup.

Bill McGurn [00:30:44] I’m probably talking at a school, but, whenever you work for an administration, even if you love the guy you work for, there’s always a few things that you disagree with, and I loved George Bush. I thought it was a great president, but I would occasionally have to write speeches defending ethanol subsidies, to my great shame. When you’re a speechwriter, you owe it not only to do it, but to do it to the best you can, because that’s what your employer deserves, and I did. I tried to do it to the best I can, but with one difference. I turned Cowperthwaite Faith’s wall when I was writing on it for all.

Roger Ream [00:31:34] Well, we’re getting short on time, but let me just ask you about more recent events related, because you’ve written some powerful columns recently about the events of the October 7th terrorist attack by Hamas and in particular the reaction on American college campuses to that which we’ve all seen in the news. Your column just about a week ago was Harvard’s Hamas confusion, which I thought was particularly good in terms of the moral clarity there. What do you think led to this sad state of affairs? Obviously, as you touched on, we seem to lack university presidents with any kind of spine or courage to take the kinds of actions that are needed. What are your thoughts about that, some of which I know you express.

Bill McGurn [00:32:24] I think it is deeper than that. I think the problem is like Harvard has as its motto: Veritas, Truth. And a lot of colleges had variation. Yale, I think, has Truth in Light. Of course, the Declaration of Independence starts out: We hold these truths to be self-evident. Today, I think you’d find on campus the professors who believed in truths and believed that the self-evident or could be discovered is very rare. I think the fastest way to get a kid to no longer believe that there’s an idea of truth that we can know is to give them an elite ivy education. The other school started out: if you can’t see a difference between people who get up in the morning and have planned to carry out killings of grandmas, mothers and babies and soldiers fighting them, what decision can you make? Can you trust their judgment on anything? I regard Hamas and the terrorists as a collection of war criminals. This was not in the heat of battle where you might shoot up innocent people. This is a planned war crime, living by people who strategy is war crimes, placing the cells in hospitals and stuff so that civilians would have to be killed if anyone went after them. That’s horrific enough, but the way so many people feel, they can’t condemn them. President Obama did, condemn them, but he went on to say basically what’s truth is very complex. No, it isn’t complex. I think these protests on campus, there are some areas were speech, there might be a fine point, but there’s not an area if they’re interfering with the university’s life. It’s amazing to me. They’re not allowed to force Jewish students into a room, while being at the outside, not allowed to harass a Jewish kid like they did at Harvard and block his way. Those should be easy calls. You should not be allowed to interfere in the life of the community or the university, and you should be dismissed if you are. I’m amazed and appalled that the universities can’t make these fundamental sanctions.

Roger Ream [00:35:20] Well, it’s been encouraging that some of the large donors to these universities are waking up and demanding some changes or they won’t continue supporting them. It’s a long time coming.

Bill McGurn [00:35:34] I think it’s going to take a long time because there’s also the money from the Middle East that I think dwarfs those donors. The Middle Eastern countries have realized like China, go to the campus, you can have a lot of influence, and the faculty hires, they have tenure. Some of this, to paraphrase my old boss, is a soft bigotry of low standards. I don’t see many chemical engineers out there protesting. I assume many of the degrees are easy courses and the professors teaching them. Again, I don’t see the hard sciences overrepresented in these people.

Roger Ream [00:36:26] Well, thank you very much, Bill, for joining me.

Bill McGurn [00:36:29] Thanks, Roger.

Roger Ream [00:36:30] I appreciate all you do as a journalist. Love your column every Tuesday and your appearances on The Wall Street Journal’s program on Saturday afternoons. Keep it going. We need people with your moral clarity speaking out on these issues and offering insights. So, thank you so much.

Bill McGurn [00:36:49] Thank you very much. Very generous. We’re big fans of The Fund for American Studies. Keep up your work, too.

Roger Ream [00:36:57] We’ll do, and we’ll do all we can to call attention to the plight of Jimmy Lai and Evan Gershkovich.

Bill McGurn [00:37:02] Thank you so much.

Roger Ream [00:37:03] Thank you, Bill. Thank you for listening to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast. Please don’t forget to subscribe, download, like or share the show on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you like this episode, I ask you to rate and review it, and if you have a comment or question for the show, please drop us an email at podcast@TFAS.org. The Liberty and Leadership Podcast is produced at kglobal studios in Washington, D.C. I’m your host, Roger Ream, and until next time, show courage in things large and small.


About the Podcast

TFAS has reached more than 46,000 students and professionals through academic programs, fellowships and seminars. Representing more than 140 countries, TFAS alumni are courageous leaders throughout the world forging careers in politics, government, public policy, business, philanthropy, law and the media.

Join TFAS President Roger Ream ’76 as he reconnects with these outstanding alumni to share experiences, swap career stories, and find out what makes their leadership journey unique. With prominent congressmen, judges and journalists among the mix, each episode is sure to excite your interest in what makes TFAS special.

If you have a comment or question for the show, please email podcast@TFAS.org.

View future episodes and subscribe at TFAS.org/podcast.

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