On this very special episode of Liberty + Leadership, host Roger Ream is joined by the 48th Vice President of the United States Mike Pence for a fireside chat at the TFAS 2024 Summer Law Fellows Closing Ceremony. They discuss the state of religious liberty, how our nation maintains peace through strength, and why democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. Plus, the the work of Advancing American Freedom (the host of the closing ceremony) and audience Q&A.

Mike Pence is the 48th Vice President of the United States. Prior to that, he served as the 50th Governor of Indiana and as a member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Indiana. He’s currently the Founder of Advancing American Freedom, an organization that promotes and defends the successful policies of recent years that yielded unprecedented prosperity at home and restored America’s strength abroad, while elevating traditional American values.

Episode Transcript

The transcript below is lightly edited for clarity.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:00:00] I know we live in a political time where particularly the media tends to reward the loudest and harshest voices, and the clicks go to the people with the harshest, unkindest words. I tell people: “You know, you get 15 miles out of Washington, D.C., the people in this country actually get along pretty well,” and I think the American people long for us to restore a threshold of civility in public life, hit hard on the issues and the differences. There are big debates about the size and scope of government, about values, about America’s place in the world, but you can do it in a way that preserves the opportunity to find common cause down the road. So, I challenge these rising young legal scholars students, whether it’s rewarded online or not, model it, and never doubt the American people. American people, I think, are looking for leaders at the end of the day that will restore that civility to public life and move our nation forward.

Roger Ream [00:00:54] Welcome to the Liberty + Leadership Podcast, a conversation with TFAS alumni, faculty, and friends who are making an impact today. I’m your host, Roger Ream. Well, thank you, Vice President Pence, very much for hosting this closing ceremony here at Advancing American Freedom. Thank you also, Mark and Mr. Vice President for hosting two of our law fellows here. I know they had a just a fantastic experience working with you at Advancing American freedom. But we appreciate especially your time tonight because your schedule is a busy one. You had some very important meetings today, I read about, and I know you value time with your wonderful, beautiful wife and family as well, so we’re grateful to you for taking the time out to be with us. Since Mark talked about Advancing American Freedom and the great work you do here, I’ve worked with many of your colleagues here, Marc Short, he has been a friend for years, Paul Taylor, and many others. Can you tell me more about your motivation for founding this organization?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:02:01] I’d be happy to, but, Roger, first let me tell you what an honor it is to be able to host you here. The Fund for American Studies has been a bulwark for liberty and constitutional principle for generations in America, and I want to invite everybody here to give you a round of applause for your extraordinary leadership.

Roger Ream [00:02:22] Thank you.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:02:26] I also want to congratulate all the graduates of the Summer Law Fellowship Program. I graduated from law school about a thousand years ago, and would that I would have had the summer that you’ve had, to really drop anchor and listen to some of the great thought leaders in our country at The Fund for American Studies. So, congratulations each one of you. I know your futures are bright. It’s a joy to be able to share this moment with you this summer. There are other heroes in the room that I’ve known for many years, Don Devine. Give him a round of applause too. when I first met Don Devine, our hair was not the same color, but he’s been a lodestar in the conservative movement, as long as I’ve been a part of it, I’m grateful to you. Humbled by the words of Mark Whitt. He will be given his pink slip tomorrow for that excessive introduction, but, Mark is, singularly as I expect that you already know from your board, he singularly is one of the most thoughtful and principled constitutional attorneys in the United States. And I want to thank you, Mark, for your great leadership in your career. And finally, despite the overly generous introduction, I hold the view that I am not the best Pence that was ever sent to Washington, D.C. The other one was, Marine, who actually served in Beirut in 1983, shipped out just before the worst single day loss in the history of the Marine Corps. He went on to do everything that matters, build a good name, business, wonderful family, and for the last three terms, he has served Indiana with enormous distinction and a commitment to principle. And since he will be hanging up his spurs in the House of Representatives at the end of this term, this might be one of my last opportunities in Washington, D.C., to give you a chance to show all of our appreciation to Congressman Greg Pence for your career and your leadership. I’m proud of you. We formed Advancing American Freedom when I left the white House, mostly because, Roger, you know, when an administration comes to an end, people are looking for job, first and foremost. I wanted to make sure that the all the good thought leaders and policy people at the Vice President’s office had a place to go and continue the work in the conservative movement. We’ve been blessed to do that. I will tell you to be perfectly transparent, over the last year and a half, in my presidential campaign last year, I saw something afoot in the Republican Party that has given greater urgency to our work at Advancing American freedom. So, I joined the Republican Party, having been the Youth Democrat party coordinator in my home county, in Indiana, and I started to listen to the words and the ideals of the 40th President of the United States, and in Ronald Reagan, I heard a commitment to a strong national defense, a commitment to a limited government as defined in the Constitution of the United States. I heard a commitment to family and life and traditional values, and I joined the Reagan Revolution, and I never looked back. But today, as has happened oftentimes in the history of the Republican Party, since our 16th President minted it into existence, there’s a movement I describe as populism unmoored to conservative principle. A populism that questions our commitment not only to our national defense, but to American leadership in a world. Populism that seems prepared to ignore the fiscal crisis facing all the great graduates of this fellowship program, and a populism that wants to walk away from the most timeless values of life and family. So, at Advancing American Freedom, we’re simply determined to be that anchor to windward, Roger. I don’t know what the future holds, but I know who holds the future. And for my part, the calling of my life, the calling for our team is to simply be a consistent, cheerful voice for that Reagan agenda, that conservative agenda, and I promise you, we’re going to continue to stand for those ideals. So, help me God.

Roger Ream [00:06:35] I know one area of concern and focus for Advancing American Freedom is religious liberty, something you’ve always championed in your life and in your career. It’s what brought the earliest settlers to this continent, and what brings many people here today, is seeking religious liberty. Could you talk some about why you think it is constantly under threat, especially in recent decades, and how we can best defend it? I hope many of these law students here, I imagine many of them, will be involved in cases trying to protect religious liberty. What are your thoughts on the status of it now and why it’s under such threat?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:07:13] Well, the freedom of religion is in many respects our first freedom. As you , Roger, just said, eloquently, it’s what drew Americans, first generations of Americans here, the 200 years of our history before 1776 on this continent were largely forged, beginning with the idea that we were to be a shining city on a hill.  I think 11 of the 13 original colonies actually had recognized state religions. So, when it came time for a national government, the compromise of the summer of 1787, approved in 1789, included that Bill of Rights and in the very First Amendment, which in a sense was a compromise to get the thing passed, which my years in Congress and my brother years in Congress know, sometimes you got to add amendments to get things done, and the Bill of Rights was that. It was a pledge the Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. There was never to be a national religion, nor should there ever be an established religion in America. Constitution prohibits it. But the Free Exercise Clause is of equal importance in the life of the nation. People that would ask me back in my days on the radio, Roger, they would say: “I’m listening to you. I’m trying to figure out where you’re coming from. Are you a conservative or you’re a libertarian? What are you?” I would always answer it the same way, I’d say: “I’m a Christian, a conservative and a Republican,” in that order. My Christian faith is the most important thing in my life and in my family’s life. So, defending that has always been a lodestar for me. The right of every American to live, to work, to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, but it’s at the very heart of the American experiment. But it’s under attack today in ways that these rising legal minds will recognize, but to me, it represents a genuine challenge, and that is, as some cultural mores have changed, there’s almost an unavoidable clash between the freedom of religion and certain other rights that have been recognized by the Supreme Court,  the Obergefell case, and I want to say, as I said when I was governor of Indiana, I don’t think anyone should ever be discriminated against because of who they are, who they love, or what they believe, but it’s the combination of understanding that as the country recognizes relationships in new and and renewed ways in the last five years, we have to equally vigorously defend the right of people to believe and to live out that faith and live out that belief. But there represents a genuine clash there. It’s not one that the Supreme Court was ignored. I’m very proud of the fact that with the help of three of the appointments, and I’m incredibly proud of the three justices we appointed to the Supreme Court of the United States, but there have been some very, very encouraging decisions by this renewed and new conservative majority that have respected the freedom of religion, the freedom of conscience. But there’s still much work to be done. Those lines are going to continue to be drawn, and I think it’s going to be imperative that men and women of principle, in the practice of the law understand the vital, central importance of the freedom of religion, and that the clash that will continue to occur between competing values in the society has to be resolved in a manner consistent with that core right, that God given right, to the free exercise of religion.

Roger Ream [00:10:47] Another issue that you are focused on at Advancing American Freedom, and one in which, as a governor, you are a leader, is education reform. You promoted school choice vouchers, charter schools. You’re doing that now. We’ve seen a lot of progress since you were governor around the country. Are you optimistic that that will continue and that we’ll have true educational choice for most Americans in the future?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:11:11] Roger, I will tell you, I’m incredibly proud of the state of Indiana for being one of the early meccas for school choice. The first privately funded school voucher program in the country was created by a Hoosier by the name of J. Patrick Rooney. State of Indiana, when I was governor, we had the largest school choice program in the country. I doubled it, but I would tell you, I think we’re beginning to win that argument in large ways across the country. Notably, it would have been roughly our first year out of office that I was with Governor Doug Ducey, literally the day that a referendum overturn what was the very first universal school choice program in America was defended in the state of Arizona. Arizona led the way, Arkansas has followed, other states have followed. I’m proud to say Indiana essentially become a universal school choice state. I just hold the view that this is, in many respects, the civil rights issue of the 21st century. I think, quite frankly, we would see in surveys in Indiana back in the 1990s, the African-American community was always considerably ahead of the rest of the population and their support for school choice. One of the things that I’ve never been able to square with the politics of the Democratic Party, which I would tell you, seven, eight out of ten African Americans 20 years ago believed the parents ought to be able to choose where their kids go to school, regardless of their income or area code. The Democratic Party hard over against school choice. I think it’s created an opportunity where our administration in states across the country there have been expanding support among minority populations because it’s the notion that the pathway toward prosperity, the pathway toward opportunity, begins with a good education. I always thought that President Bush, who you know, President George W. Bush most eloquent statement was when he condemned, as he was advocating school choice and reform, he condemned what he called the soft bigotry of low expectations. He condemned the soft bigotry of low expectations. If you unpack that, it will really nurture your understanding and it’ll challenge you. It’ll challenge people in communities. I’ve spoken, used that quote many times around the country, because if you are prepared to say that there are some Americans that we just have to expect less of, we know what that’s called. Whereas the American ideal is that anybody can be anybody. And that given the opportunity, any American of any background, race, creed or color can achieve the American Dream, and that’s what school choice is built on, and I think it’s an idea whose time has come.

Roger Ream [00:13:52] I was speaking this week with some of the students in our journalism program, and they were thanking us for arranging such a exciting summer of events from the presidential debate coming in June, the attempted assassination attempt. They’ve had a summer they could write and write and write about. I just would love to ask you. You’ve no doubt watched some of the convention. You touched on the importance of sticking to those values that traditionally conservatives or Republicans have believed in: free enterprise and strong America. Can you look in that crystal ball and give us any insights as to what you expect the next four months to be like?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:14:33] No.

Roger Ream [00:14:34] He might know.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:14:39] Don Devine, it was the right answer.

Roger Ream [00:14:40] Don Devine wrote a column in September of 2023, making the argument that Republicans are wrong to be campaigning against President Biden. He’s not going to be the candidate you face next year. Nobody listened to him till recently.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:14:58] You can applaud that if you want to.

Roger Ream [00:15:04] Well, let me ask this. You were the 48th Vice President of the United States.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:15:08] Can I speak to that?

Roger Ream [00:15:09] Sure.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:15:10] I’m still optimistic about the future. I often tell people that in my 20 years of public service, my opinion of government generally went down, but my opinion of the American people went up every year, every week, every day. I was standing, I was doing some fly fishing in Montana, I didn’t go to Milwaukee either, I saw an article that sai: “Pence chooses Montana over Milwaukee,” but I’m standing there with a fellow that owns this great stretch of a river, he had his hands in his pockets, and he looked at me and he goes: “What do you think? What do you think’s going to happen?” And I just looked and I said: “The only thing I know for sure is that the American people are going to sort this out, and we’re going to return our country to the principles and practices that we know have always made America strong and prosperous and free.” I’ve always loved, Karen and I try and do a little devotional time in the Bible in the mornings, and just the other day, we just read the verses where, David’s son, Solomon, becomes king and he has a prayer and prays that God would give him a discerning heart to distinguish who is right and wrong. And then he says: “For who is able to govern this great people of yours?” And what I love about that was not just that Solomon’s knew whose he was, but he knew who he served. I will tell you from the bottom of my heart, my time as your Vice President, my time as a one of the Governors in this country, in my time, as a member of Congress, seeing Americans in some most difficult time, seeing our troops and visits downrange, we serve a great people, and the American people are going to steer toward freedom, no matter how chaotic today may seem. We’re going to build a future of freedom for our nation. I believe it with all my heart.

Roger Ream [00:16:51] In his opening remarks tonight, Colin Parks, who directs this program, quoted one of my favorite statements from Randy Barnett that “our Constitution is the document that governs those who govern us,” and Randy goes on to say that it’s only government officials who swear an oath to uphold it. The American people don’t swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. It’s something that applies to those who govern us. He’s very good at talking about that. Now, you swore that oath, and then on January 6th of 2021, you were in a position where you faced a lot of pressure but proved a profile in courage by upholding the Constitution. Would you comment some on that, how you faced that? What drove you?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:17:38] Well, Roger, thank you. I’m very humbled by your words, and the encouragement. Those were difficult days, but for me, not surprisingly, you put your finger on it already. January 20th, 2017 I put my left hand on Ronald Reagan’s Bible, and I raised my right hand and I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. It ended with a prayer. So, help me God. It’s the same oath every elected official takes at every level. More importantly, it’s the same oath, people to wear a uniform at home and abroad take. I will tell you from very early on, for the first time, the internet started to boil in December about some idea that as Vice President, I would have the authority to decide which Electoral College votes to count and which not to count, to send back or to reject. I knew it would not have been so. I spent a lifetime studying the American founding. I dyed my hair to look more like the American founders. So, important to remember when they signed that Declaration of Independence, if you haven’t read it in a while, go read it, they had one complaint, or at least it had many complaints, but they were directed to one person. I remember saying to my team early in December, I said: “You know, I’ve heard this, but I know it’s not true, because the founders of this country would never have intentionally vested unilateral authority in any one person. They just fought a war. The American presidency belongs to the American people, and the American people alone.” As I said: “It’s almost no idea, more un-American than any one person could choose the American president.” But I went into that process, with that conviction and that expectation. I don’t want to tell you that it wasn’t difficult. President Trump and I had had a very close working relationship for four years. I’m very proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration. We strengthen our military, we revived our economy, we appointed conservatives to our courts at every level. The world was more secure and more prosperous. And it was a small part of that, one of the great honors of my life, but I just knew in my heart of heart that all that really mattered was that I kept my oath. Frankly, there were some and well-meaning way that said I might choose to do what our Vice President did today, and that was if somebody else fill in for them in a joint session of Congress, but I thought of my son, who’s a marine Corps major. I thought of my son in law as a captain. I thought of everybody who wears a uniform now and in the past and I thought, when our soldiers get an assignment, they don’t get to decide whether that one’s particularly uncomfortable. I’m not going to do it. You took the oath to respect the unified chain of command, and you execute the mission. And, by God’s grace, I went into that with the same attitude. It all came down to a promise, and I tried to communicate that to members of Congress on that day, and it was, I believe, in January 2017, I made a promise to the American people, but I also believe that I made it to Almighty God and by his grace, I believe and will always believe that we did our duty that day. The Bible says: “He keeps his oath even when it hurts.” I know some about that. I truly do believe that that was a moment, deflecting attention from me where, despite the riot that occurred and the injuries and hardship that occurred, the shock to the country. It was a day that our institutions held. It was a day that not just one person, but every member of Congress returned to the well and did their job. I remember when we reconvened the Senate that very same day, I had a few short words that I’d written with my family at my side, and I said: “World will today once again witness the resilience of our system of government. “And so, if you think back on that day, I would encourage all of you when you take that oath, you’re sworn in as an officer of the court, take it just just as seriously. And those of you that may serve in uniform, those of you that may serve in public life do the same. Keep your word, but have the confidence derived from witnessing that day and being alive as Americans and young adults in that day to know, in the end of the day, our constitutional Republic held, and may it ever be.

Roger Ream [00:22:28] Shifting topics for a minute. I read a piece you wrote very recently about China, and obviously there’s a perception in the world today that America’s weak. There’s someone not much older than our law fellows here, Evan Gershkovich, who’s been sentenced to 16 years in a penal colony by Putin. Another American journalist sentenced this week, I think, to six years. We saw the Iranian attack on Israel on October 7th. There are concerns about Taiwan and Taiwan’s doing the military exercises this week to how to push back an invasion from China. How do we restore an America that its policies are based on peace through strength?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:23:15] Well, we have work to do. Although, look, military in the United States is still the strongest military the world has ever known. I said earlier this week that was important with all the upheaval and the changes and an assassination attempt on a former president and a sitting president stepping aside from a campaign that we needed to send a message to the wider world, that our military is strongest in history, and we’re prepared to defend our freedom and to defend our treaty allies. I believe we are capable of that today. The question is a little bit into the future, and that’s what I wrote about this week at Fox News.com, and we’re going to be leaning into. I met today with some of the leadership in the Senate to speak about the very important work that Senator Roger Wicker is doing to simply call us back. Look, during the Reagan administration, we spent an average of 5 to 7% on military spending, 5 to 7% of GDP. Correct me, if I’m wrong, Don. We’re now at 3% at a time where the world seems to become more dangerous by the day. Senator Wickers bill calls for us to return to five, but the important thing to remember is in World War II, we spent 38% of our GDP. To invest in and strengthen the nation as how one achieves peace and avoids war. And for our part of Advancing American freedom, we’re going to be part of a chorus as the new Congress is seated, saying that we have some catching up to do. Not that we’re behind any other military, but that you look at the investments that are being made by China in conventional warfare and space assets, and you look at the extraordinary and unprovoked aggression of Russia and the new alliance between North Korea, Iran and China and Russia. Now’s the time for us to step forward and create a new vision for providing for the common defense, which is the first obligation of the federal government. But to me, it will take vision and articulation and leadership. I just came from a meeting with some rising leaders in the House of Representatives who are working on just that. The last part of this is we have to also recognize what we’re dealing with. I mean, Russia’s unprovoked invasion in Ukraine demands a response by the free world, and America is the leader of the free world. I have no doubt in my mind, having met Vladimir Putin. If Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it’s simply going to be a matter of time before he crosses a border that our men and women in uniform are going to go have to deal with him. The world bought into a different thought about 90 years ago. And 6 million died worldwide. So, from my standpoint, we have to build up our military, but we also have notably, the Republican Party has to be that voice of American leadership on the world stage, make the investments, have the strength, but then be willing to deploy American military resources to support nations like Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan in the defense of their own freedom. That’s a pathway toward peace and stability in the world.

Roger Ream [00:26:38] We’re going to open this up to to some questions. We will give priority to our law fellows. I did want to ask you one last question. You’re a student of history, and we’ve become a very polarized country, sadly divided even over about the account of our history and our founding. There are those that push an agenda really focused on the flaws, and obviously, we had slavery. There were flaws at the founding. But you can understand real history and still believe we’re an exceptional country. You’ve recently been attacked for a very civil tweet you sent out when the president announced he wasn’t going to stand for reelection and people attack you. I mean, we have this incivility driven by social media. Could you offer some thoughts, maybe, about how we can rekindle and find common ground among us all about those basic core values this country was founded on, and bring us together around those the belief in limited government and the rule of law, free enterprise, things that you should believe in, whether you’re a liberal or conservative, a Republican or a Democrat, because they built this, the greatest country on earth with such tremendous innovation and improvements in our lives that we should be able to find common ground, and we can, it seems.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:28:00] I’d say two things. Number one is democracy depends on heavy doses of civility, and if you intend to enter public life, I encourage you to break training. I didn’t know this my entire career. If you read my autobiography, “So help me God,” which is available on Amazon and were all good books are sold. You’ll find early in my political career, even despite the fact that I was a professing Christian, I set the standards of my faith aside and got down in the mudslinging world of American politics, but when it was all over, I ended up regretting that, and ten years later, when the opportunity came around to run for office again, my wife and I just decided we were gonna serve an audience of one. We were going to treat others the way we want to be treated. I’m not taking on the issues, I love telling people they’re wrong about stuff, but it’s the difference between telling that you’re wrong about that and saying you’re a bad person. There is a difference between saying: “Your thinking isn’t grounded in American ideals” and saying that you don’t love your country. I just would encourage you, by God’s grace, we’ve aspired to that over the last 20 years. And frankly, I witnessed it today. I was at a funeral for the late Senator Joe Lieberman. Joe was one of those people that practiced that level of civility, and at his funeral at the Hebrew Temple, just near by our nation’s capital, there were as many Republicans as Democrats, there were. I don’t know that you asking me that question on the day that of his memorial services and what we call God’s timing at my house, because I will say one other thing, and that is that I believe that is the aspiration of the American people. I know we live in a political time where particularly the media tends to reward the loudest and harshest voices, and the clicks go to the people with the harshest unkindest words. I tell people :”You get 15 miles out of Washington, D.C. the people in this country actually get along pretty well.” I think the American people long for us to restore a threshold of civility in public life. Hit hard on the issues and the differences. There are big debates about the size and scope of government, about values, about America’s place in the world, but you can do it in a way that preserves the opportunity to find common cause down the road. I just would challenge these rising leaders in the room to think about that. There’s a reason why in Congress and frankly, in most legislatures in the free world, there are these arcane rules of debate. I have to refer to you as my friend from Maryland, my good friend, the gentle lady from Pittsburgh. You’re watching C-Span, and I know some of you do. You watch C-Span, you go: “Why are they talking like that? What is that?” It’s because I think our founders have understood, and throughout Western history have understood that democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. So, I challenge these rising young legal scholars to whether it’s rewarded online or not, model it, and never doubt the American people. American people, I think, are looking for leaders at the end of the day that will restore that civility to public life and move our nation forward.

Roger Ream [00:31:26] Great.

Roger Ream [00:31:26] Well, let’s see, are there some questions from any of our legal scholars?

Audience #1 [00:31:33] Thank you for being here, Vice President Pence. My name is Ryan Lloyd. I’m also a rising thrill at Notre Dame. My question for you stems from the fact that you were a radio host for some time, which I’ve always thought that was really fascinating. And so, I guess I’ll phrase the question like this. Somebody who’s graduating law school and looking at going to a firm, thinking to themselves: “I could go to a firm and enjoy the work, even make money, have a good time, maybe potentially be there forever,” but there’s just a little voice in the back of my head all the time, every day that’s kind of telling me: “Maybe there’s something else I should be doing,” but I don’t know exactly what that is. Maybe it’s start a business. Maybe it’s going to politics. Maybe it’s being a radio host. What advice do you have?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:32:25] Listen to that little voice. Although I will tell you, I know people who are my age who have had extraordinary careers in the law, people of enormous consequence and they’ve drawn great satisfaction from their careers, but for me, I loved studying law. I really did. I went to the McKinney school before it was called that in downtown Indianapolis. I loved the study of the law. Particularly, I was passionate about constitutional issues, but I always felt, as you did that there was something more, and that’s when I ventured out after practicing law for about three years, and I had chance to run for Congress the first time, and I did it. I read a study one time that said when people were asked who were in hospice care on their deathbed what advice they would give from where they were. The number one, not by a lot, I mean that 85% of the people said: “I’d take more risk.” You get to that hospital bed, things take on a different perspective, but that’s what the one thing that came through, and I tell you, the greatest blessings in my life have been when we ventured out and sometimes met with defeat more than once, sometimes come up short, but always moved on to what’s next. There’s a verse in the book of Jonah that my wife and I clung to when we were deciding to run for Congress for the third time. My brother got elected the first time he ran, which he likes to remind people, it took me three. But there’s a verse in Jonah that says: “Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.” So, I just encourage you, don’t cling to what you think you’re supposed to do, be more than that. If you’re in the practice of law, expand your horizons and look for opportunities to really develop a reputation in the community and be a leader in the law in your community. But beyond that, I encourage you to step out, take risks. Do it in a way that is honorable and forthright, and I promise you, you won’t regret it.

Audience #2 [00:34:38] Thank you, Mr. Vice President. This has been wonderful. What advice do you have on getting power out of Washington and back to state and local governments? Thank you.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:34:47] Vote Republican.

Roger Ream [00:34:54] We are a nonpartisan organization.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:34:58] That was what you call a legal disclaimer. Look, I don’t think the 10th amendment was a new idea at the end of the Bill of Rights. I think it was an exclamation mark at the end of the Constitution. The Constitution itself is a document of limited federal government. And then at the 10th Amendment, it says: “Just in case you haven’t gotten the message, whatever is not delegated here is reserved to the states and the people.” That’s why I would like to see us shut down the federal Department of Education. It was one of Jimmy Carter’s worst ideas. And education at the state and local function, law enforcement, firefighting and the things that matter most. With all due respect to my brother and all of his colleagues, when I hear a bump in the night, I don’t call my congressman. And so, I think those functions of government that Thomas Jefferson said: “Government that governs least governs best,” and we had to have that message. With the fiscal crisis that the country is facing, and almost nobody is talking about. A couple of us in that presidential campaign last year, we’re talking about it. I’ll never stop because I’m not going to do that to your generation. Hey, we’re at about $35 trillion in national debt today. We just saw a projection that at about ten years, it could hit $50 trillion. I mean, the impact on the quality of life, more importantly, the impact on the ability of the United States to provide for the common defense, to have a safety net for people at the bottom of the the ladder of opportunity is all going to be put at risk if we allow that mountain range of debt to continue to grow, but it’s going to take vision to do that. I think rather than just talking about just cut, cut, cut is devolving programs back to the States. When I was governor of the state of Indiana, we had to go to Washington, D.C. to ask for waivers to operate the federal programs that we ran for the federal government. We ran them, but the federal government told us how to run them. And we had to say: “We’d like work requirements for able bodied people on welfare. We’d we’d like to introduce health savings accounts into our Medicaid program.” We had to go hand in hand as though Washington had money, and we were coming to ask for the money. Instead of dirty little secret, there’s no money in Washington. It’s all from us. It goes to Washington, it passes through, and then it comes back. You bypass that whole process. If you move those programs as you reform government, you move them back down to the states. 10th amendment is part of the answer. Electing leaders that understand that. I promise you, it’s a profoundly important question. I commend you for it. Time for one more.

Audience #3 [00:37:46] Thank you, Mr. Vice President. I really appreciate you being here and particularly, in 2020, fulfilling your oath. My question is something you touched on about populism in our party. How do we go back to restoring the tenets of traditional conservatism and moving away from this kind of far removed. ideology that’s just about winning versus about governing?

Vice President Mike Pence [00:38:10] Just raise the banner high. I mean, when I was running for president last year, the media loved to write Mike Pence’s problem, and a couple of other my friends who were running this said their problem is they’re running in a Republican Party that doesn’t exist anymore. It wasn’t my experience. Everywhere I went: Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina, I would talk about strong national defense, American leadership in the world. I visited Ukraine in the middle of my campaign. I would talk about getting back to a balanced federal budget, constitutional limited government, pro-growth policies, free enterprise, the right to life, and everywhere when people were cheering. I was surprised, though, because every Trump rally I ever spoke at, I spoke at many rallies where there were thousands or ones where he was also at, where there were tens of thousands. I would say those same things and the crowd would roar, the roof would lift. I have no doubt this movement remains conservative. It’s just there are voices in the Republican Party today who are giving way to more populism, unmoored to conservative principle. I don’t believe it’s where the American people are at. I really don’t. I think there are other factors that work. The cross-currents in this election, beginning with the abject failure of the Biden administration at home and abroad, and the sense I had that a good percentage of voters just thought we’d probably best bet as a rematch. I will say to you, as rising legal scholars, equal treatment under the law is a core American principle, and I believe this lawfare against the former president has offended millions of Americans rightly. Me included. I’ll make my point by telling you. I had a guy walk up to me at the end of a town hall meeting in Iowa. It was a room about like this, and he walked up to me and he said: “Mr. Vice President. That was real good meeting. I liked everything he said. You’re going to be a great president someday.” I said: “Well, thank you. Can I count on your support?” And he said: “No, I got to vote for Trump.” And he said: “But I’ll see you in four years.” And I said: “Do you mind telling me why?” And he said, kind of a summary of what I just said to you. He’s kind of like: “Biden is so bad.” But then he said: “If they can do that to a former president, they can do that to me. We just can’t have it.” Now, some people look at the outcome of the nomination process and what was a very successful convention last week, and they think the party has changed. I hold a different view. I really do. I think that many more with us that are with them, people that believe in that agenda that Ronald Reagan didn’t invade, but he made popular 50 years ago. He was the first person to say, Reagan said: “Some people call me a great communicator. He said, I’m not a great communicator. I just communicate great things.” And he said: “They aren’t original to me. They’re just American ideals.” So, my answer to you and all of you is everything you’ve learned at The Fund for American Studies and this internship program just got put into practice. Articulate them. And as you stand up into your career of law, or you get yourself involved in public life in the days ahead, just hold the banner high and never down. The American people will rally to your cause as I believe they will.

Vice President Mike Pence [00:41:34] Thank you.

Roger Ream [00:41:36] Thank you very much.

Roger Ream [00:41:39] Thank you for listening to the Liberty + Leadership Podcast. If you have a comment or question, please drop us an email at podcast@TFAS.org and be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and leave a five-star review. Liberty + Leadership is produced at Podville Media. I’m your host, Roger Ream, and until next time, show courage in things large and small.

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TFAS has reached nearly 49,000 students and professionals through academic programs, fellowships and seminars. Representing more than 140 countries, TFAS alumni are courageous leaders throughout the world forging careers in politics, government, public policy, business, philanthropy, law and the media.

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